Team Play

[Vter]

So, thanks to the very smart european team, we now know the correct strategy for team play. As it turns out, that strategy - if played by both teams - would result in the most boring poker event in history. If only one team plays that strategy, the only thing boring about it is the slaughter that ensues.

For that reason, I will be disinclined to play in any team events in the future. I'd rather get the same players together and play a regular MTT, for the purpose of displaying my skill and admiring the skill of my opponents (and cursing my bad beats).

Vter[/u]

[gw240]

Vter - I tend to agree.
If both teams played the same strategy, it might only prove to be the longest boring game on record.
And judging from the American style of play, I would say that would never work.
Americans prefer to play to show individual talents.
They tend to play aggressively.
(If your American...don't flame me...just my observations)
They may even be considered to have oversized ego's....
But that may be more influenced by the nature of the game (after all folks, it is poker, and who here doesn't have a little ego?)

Congrats! to the European team for grasping the team concept and playing it better.

[The MaDD Bot]

I lost to Micky heads up - and thats just the way it is. He was quite gracious as we both had monster hands that no one would have folded - and that is the life of heads up.

Vter and PK refused to allow for chip dumping, signalling* and the sort on our part. Although I initially disagreed, I now stand corrected and am glad that we did not take that path.

During the matches is became painfully obvious that we had not a chance playing it "straight". Any "all in" or substantial bet was quicky called by any raggs possible in hope for the suckout. Basiclly it turned into a structured freeroll. I watched painfully as good players got ratteld by the obsurd calls.

I was thinking we would just play and that the players with the better cards and little bit of luck that night would surface at the final table.

Speaking of which - Raptor's comments at the final table Firday were a total disgrace and indicative of his overall attitude. Such inappropriate comments on an international scale from a person who is oblivious to his own history validates what I have always thought of this person.

You E players and supporters can stop with the room visits and tasteless comments - my chat is off - time to go back into stealth mode. Saturday was a good measure of how "some" E players do on their own. Some very good E players will never be affected (Micky - great player!), but final tables seem void of the team E. Soul - didnt 't see too many players in the Cup - but you are a great person and player from what I have seen.

BTW ( I'm not Dew - I'm Benn HaDD ). Dew and my kid play - but thanks for the complement. He wins and I finish 17 in Pk's evening event - ( wish I was as patient as that kid is ) .

Most of all - I'm still curious as to why the schedule was not a weekend event and modified so that ONE PLAYER could make all the events? That schedule knocked out some of the more consistant players from the US. Yeah that ticked me off because I virtually had about 2 total hours to play all events - not much help to the team. Then again - played stealth Saturday and picked some off some of the verbal "E" with ease. Sort a bites playing n your own in an MTT without a shield around your rags.

Validation was made for the skills of PokerGurl and CardGrrl. Vter, and 3 Trey rose to the top of this heap ( as expected ) and PK ( in my mind ) confirmed his status as one of the best ( if not the best ) tourney players on PA.

Back to the way it was - playing, having fun - cashing! Not winning - cashing! As I slip off the leader board - - - - I'll still be in the shadows.

I won't be cking responses - fire away!!! I was much better before this whole get to know your neighbor stuff started - so back to the way it was.

[Vter]

MaDD,

I agree with much of what you said; here's a little elaboration.

Certainly in heads up Lente beat me fair and square even after I had him on the ropes.

I totally agree with your comment: "I was thinking we would just play and that the better cards and players that night would surface at the final table." The Europeans are good players. My disappointment was that we didn't get to see their excellent play in the Cup games. We saw strategy, very well thought out strategy.

Maybe team poker is an oxymoron. Maybe it's merely a stupid format. I immediately played differently from my normal play at the table the first night - one HAD to. So it was crazy for us to think that when there is a team goal, there would ever be any semblance of actual hold'em play. NOBODY played normally in the Cup games. It's just that the Europeans had analyzed team play and developed an insightful approach to maximizing positive results, rather than sitting down and trying to be good players supporting each other in unsophisticated ways.

That is why for me the team concept is basically a waste of time. Supposedly, as I understand it, people play at PA to improve their game or to test and investigate their abilities without risking their bank accounts. Tteam play does neither. Plus, as I spent so many frigging hours arranging, debating, contacting, scheduling, etc., I didn't have time to actually play PAX tourneys and work on my blessed rating.

I will say that PK's identifying the European methodology has melted away any rancor that developed as I watched myself and my teammates being obliterated time and again. I was really pissed off Friday night. And those who have played against me at PA know how rare that is. When PK opened my eyes, I realized that it was not an act of the poker gods but outstanding insight that had lead to our demise, which is much more acceptable to me.

I did take some umbrage at the European gloating at the end of Fridays MTT and I channeled my anger into making comments in return, although my comments were very much contained and controlled in contrast to my feelings at that moment. I would say that some of the Europeans comments I chalk up to being drunk on success. It must have been profoundly satisfying to have no Americans at the table with 8 players left. And to know that one's analysis of tream poker was utterly on target. Still, I do think of Europe as the old world, a region that often shows a lot of class in many areas of human endeavor, and I was disappointed that class did not enter into the European celebrating. I forgive them for their excesses. (But I'm a naive sucker, so that figures.)

Seriously, I am quite happy to go back to regular tournament play and face individuals rather than conglomerates. Let's play POKER.

Vter

[Lente]

I know al lot has been said about fridays tournament and maybe I should just shut up, but that is sometimes not so easy for me...

I still would like to give my opinion about certain things concerning fridays play.

First of all, the Europeans had no strategy planned when we started the tournament. It is true that we discussed using a system of tells (that is no secret), but we agreed not to use that system and we all kept our word.

I disagree with the remarks that the European victory was just luck and that our players made bad calls. As a matter of fact I disagree with any generalizing remarks about the team. Each of the players has his or her own style and most of them played according to that. Maybe not all of these styles are according to the established "poker-rules", but that does not necessarily make it bad play.

I also made a call that could be characterized as "bad" and that took PK out of the tournament. If you place such calls in the structure and goal of the Cup, these calls are - in my opinion - not that bad anymore. I made my calls, raises and folds firstly for the team and secondly for myself. This is probably the difference between the European and American play during this specific tournament. The choice for making these plays are a result of what happened in the beginning of the tournament.

I think that the basis of the outcome lies in the fact that early in the tournament more Americans went out than Europeans. That could have been bad luck, I do not know, since I have not seen all these hands. As a result, Europeans were over-represented. That made the game quite different and yes, maybe even a bit boring. The style of play the Europeans took on at that moment was - in my view - a logical choice. Not pre-arranged, but logical. What would you have done?

I know I have been playing with and against some very good players during the Cup. (I was up against Vter in heads-up and his play really impressed me.) I have seen excellent plays, boring plays and stupid plays on both sides! (Please do not ask me to give examples )

The Americans are right in saying that our "celebration" was not at all gentlemen-like (even if not all of us took part in it), but if I remember correctly, an apoligy was given.

On the whole I really liked participating in the Cup and I hope all of you did too. Maybe we can use tonights tourney to set things straight: no team play and every participant plays his or her best poker! We can even crown tonights winner Poker King or Poker Queen...

Awww please, can we still be friends....

Lente

[Akileos]

Here is an excellent series of articles about playing games to win.
My thanks to trazz for pointing them out a few months ago.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles
_________________
Look mommy, I won a hand! I love poker now!!!

[Chip Raptor]

I know you don't want an answer but... Don't you think it's too easy ?

[Rob-L]

The thing is, this Ryder Cup thing was a fun idea and from what I can tell all who participated had fun. But, that's all it is was fun (to a point at least).

Vter is absolutely right. Poker is designed to be a game for individuals. It doesn't translate well into team play. As soon as you introduce team play into it you introduce collusion, even if it is as little as soft playing a teammate. It doesn't have to be premeditated it happens naturally. When that happens it ceases to be real poker. But, it sounded like a fun event and if that was the goal then I think the PA Ryder Cup accomplished that.


The only way to really do it is to have a series of heads-up matches.
_________________
a.k.a. UncleTrick
- Roaming Vegas -

[Chip Raptor]

[Rob-L]

[Jimi]

You could have given all the players different names just before kick-off, so everyone is anonymous and ban talking. But then it would be just another tourney. Not a team game.

Some people are having great difficulty getting their heads around the fact, that this is a different situation from throwing 40 pax at the hematite room and taking a seat.

The same way the rules for the real Ryder Cup are different, you would not win you one major trophy in golf.

Note Europe 18 1/2 | America 9 1/2 with America having top 3 players in the world.

Think on sailors

[Rob-L]

Well, golf is easily converted to a team game. Poker isn't. If it was I'm sure the good people at ESPN, Fox or the WPT or WSOP would have introduced the concept years ago.

[Jimi]

Note my point

this is a different situation from throwing 40 pax at the hematite room and taking a seat.

[Rob-L]

I understand that. What you don't understand is the team poker is a not real poker. It can't be. It's putting a square peg into a round hole and turning into something that is not legitimate and against it's nature.

[P K]

[Jimi]

Team Poker has been televised UT, maybe not in US, but it has on UK, similiar to the way that it has been done here with te ryder cup.

Other people are starting to jump on too

I know you like a little read, so

Have a look at another form here different from what happening here with the Ryder Cup

PokerRoom.com Unveils Team Poker


You read that right. TEAM poker. What has always been one of the most individual of individual contests has now been made into a team competition by PokerRoom.com.

No, it does not involve two people sharing one hand. No, there is no collusion. This is all about friends pooling their resources and playing individually for the betterment of the group.

At PokerRoom.com, teams can be comprised of anywhere from five to ten members, with one Team Leader, who is in charge team enrollment and event buy-ins. All members have access to their share of the team wallet, to which they can transfer funds from their own personal PokerRoom.com bankrolls. Team members can also withdraw funds from the wallet at any time. Of course, a team member can never withdraw more than his share of the team bankroll. Additionally, nobody can deposit money into the team wallet to make one’s share of the wallet more than 20%. The only way to grow one’s share of the team wallet above 20% is to participate in and win team events.

As stated previously, the Team Leader handles all event buy-ins. The Team Leader is responsible for assigning team members to various events and signing the team up for competitions. He does not, however, have absolute power, as before a buy-in is actually paid for an event, the required number of team members must give their approval. The team members can also suggest events to join and players to recruit.

If the team wins money in an event, only the players who actually participated receive the winnings (no coattail riders here). Each player receives his share of the buy-in plus his share of the winnings, in proportion to his share of the overall team wallet compared to the shares of the other participating team members. So, the more money a player has contributed to the team, the more money he stands to win. Through winning events, a player can see his share of the team wallet exceed 20%. According to PokerRoom.com, prize distribution is designed this way to reward long-term loyalty to the team.

There are currently two types of team events, Team Leagues and Team Eliminators.

Team Leagues are a series of tournaments in which one player from each team competes. Leagues can vary in the number of rounds played, the frequency of the rounds, the buy-in, scheduling, and payout structure. For each round, the teams will receive points based on how their players finish. At the end of all the rounds, the prize pool (consisting of the buy-ins from each team) will be distributed to the teams that earn the most points, as laid out at the beginning of the league. Depending on the league structure, the duration of the league could be as short as days or as long as months.

Team Eliminators are heads-up tournaments played between teams in a sort of “March Madness” style bracket setup. One player will represent each team in the opening round in a one-on-one match against another team, with the winner advancing to the next round. In the next round, a different player may be selected by his team. In the end, two teams will remain to determine the champion.

PokerRoom.com deserves a lot of credit for having the creativity, desire, and courage to put forth this unique poker offering for its players. While it may be a little confusing and slow to develop at first, it could turn out to be a ton of fun for everybody involved and infuse a little sportsmanship and camaraderie into the game of poker.

More information on how to signup and play team poker can be found at http://www.pokerroom.com

[Rhino316NY]

I propose if the Ryder Cup moves on to next year that Limit is the event that replaces the team game. Limit involves a different set of skills, as opposed to heads up and no limit tournament. It's something that is often overlooked easily here on PA.
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Back to Back Champion - TheDeuce's All-Star Saturday Shootout

[Rob-L]

The poker room format seems vastly different. It will be interesting to see if it catches on.

I still think poker is a game for an individual not a team. I don't care how many people come up with concepts for team play, what format it is or where it's played or anything else. Team play alters the game and makes it something it was not intended to be.

That is all I really have to say. That's just my opinion, but I also tend to be a bit of a purist too. If people like the team format and like to play, that's great. But hopefully next time the recognize it for what it is.

[Chip Raptor]

[Jayhawker]