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Jathan
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mamoose wrote: | This arguement reminds me of the debate about steriods. I wonder if people think Barry Bonds isn't a cheater either.
People that cheat are scum, particularly when it affects other people and their money. Jathan basically robbed people. |
Robbed?? We played with an edge. We didn't rob anyone. If I robbed them I'd be leaving withe the whole $600 every time we played. Sometimes the cards ran so bad we ended up with nothing. Card counting gives BlackJack players an edge. It doesn't guarantee they will win. And that's not even illigal in AC or Vegas. In Vagas if they suspect you of card counting they can deny you action and blacklist you. In AC they can change the betting limits to strap your hands down. The BlackJack teams from MIT use team play to further improve their situations. You want to call it cheating or colluding, fine. But robbing??? I think you're stretching the definition of robbing significantly. Even the MIT blackJack teams have run into stratches where the cards weren't coming and it ended up cause some to suspect true "stealling" at first but this was in fact false. It was just a bad stretch where their edge or advantage could not overcome the cards. Robbing???
| mamoose wrote: |
Sure it was petty larceny... That would make me sleep better too.
at least we're not advocating mugging people in the parking garage...
If you want to cheat at poker, stop playing. It would be much safer to burgal people's cars for radios and such. |
I know what cheating is but you really need to understand the difference between cheating/colluding and theft. There is a difference.
BB gain an unfair advantage by using the cream and the clear. We had an unfair advantage by colluding. The Ryder Cuppers each thought the had advantages on each other by agreeing/cooperating. None of us robbed anyone. |
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mamoose
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 166
Location: Meriden, CT
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Let me get this straight, you went into a game where you had 3 or even 4!!! people playing together, giving signs, and/or signals? that's cheating, that's not some sort of simple collusion. I understand not betting against someone, I often "collude" by not betting against the big stacks when I'm leading a tourney... or by making a questionable call with other players against an all-in stack near the bubble... There are plenty of SILENT AGREEMENTS in poker. That's part of the game.
Betting with your right hand when you have the nuts, left hand on a draw, or other signals is where you crossed a clear line - these aren't "tells".
Signalling and/or signing is cheating and when money is involved -is essentially stealing. It's not "adjusting the odds." You went in to a casino to steal other people's money. Pulling the "but the dictionary says" bit to quibble quabble in semantics is silly.
If yuo were only concerned with "gaining an edge" - you shouldn't have needed a 20 minute "timeout" to cool off before seeing the guy (your friend's friend) that busted you... You would have gotten up said "shoot, that sucks.." and gone on with life.
For anyone even thinking about pulling these stunts, people get beaten up for crap like this.
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P K
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jathan wrote: | | P K wrote: | Well, I have been following this thread and thinking, "I have no dog in this fight", but now I do.
Let me set the record straight.
The American Ryder cup team NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, had any meeting whatsoever. At no time did we ever discuss collusion, plan bets, actions, chip dumps or anthing of the nature.
The only thing we did, was to change our names to Number 1, 2 3 and 4.
Individually, and without discussing it amongst ourselves, some of us dumped chips to our teammates and checked hands we would have normally bet. When I wrote the article, it was after the fact, which is why I said we did the same thing the Euro's did. In other words, we learned form them and some of us, without premeditation, did the same things they had done in previous games.
If that is collusion, I admit I did it, but somehow I don't think it is collusion as collusion requires two or more people to plan the action.
So, in closing, I do take offense to any notion that the American team planed to cheat. IT DID NOT HAPPEN!
P K |
From the Merriam-Webster online disctionary:
Collusion: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.
What we did was the agreement AND cooperation parts of the definition. PK, I'll take your word that there was no agreement on the American side and that your team just adjusted their play. What you describe is an unspoken cooperation which is part of the definition.
As for the Euros, does anyone think they just magically showed up on day 1 and coincidentally decided to all start calling every raise by an American player? Agreement AND cooperation.
I can understand not wanting to be lummped with me in the lowest of the lowest of the lowest scum on the face of the earth. Maybe dumping chips to your teammates and checking hands you would have normally bet only puts you in the lowest scum on the face of the earth, according to Nut-ella. Who knows??? |
For the record, I did not, and am not, calling you a scum. I will reserve my opinion of your described actions in the casinos.
I appreciate you taking my word regarding collusion as my statement is factual, we never had any team meetings or a single discussion. We did, however, learn, albeit late, that chip dumping and checking hands down is the only way to win at "team poker". I guess our lack of a team meeting is why ACE234 decided winning for himself was more important than saving face for the team.
As far as being lumped in with the "lowest of the lowest of scum", both nut-ella and jayhawker already have me classified the same as they classify you. The reason is not because of your post, rather because these type of people need to put others down in order to feel good about themselves.
That is why you see most of their posts are filled with criticism of others.
P K |
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Jathan
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mamoose wrote: | | Let me get this straight, you went into a game where you had 3 or even 4!!! people playing together, giving signs, and/or signals? that's cheating, |
Yes it is. In poker poker it's called collusion because it involves more than one person. In baseball it's called cheating because when they take steroids, it involves a single player. One could argue that it is also collusion since we now know that several players on the same team would take steroids but I think we're splitting hairs here.
| mamoose wrote: |
that's not some sort of simple collusion. |
Are you now gonna try to split collusion into into different categories??
| mamoose wrote: |
I understand not betting against someone, I often "collude" by not betting against the big stacks when I'm leading a tourney... |
That is NOT collusion. That is fear or your part.
| mamoose wrote: |
or by making a questionable call with other players against an all-in stack near the bubble... There are plenty of SILENT AGREEMENTS in poker. That's part of the game. |
This is not collusion. Calling an all in buy a short stack with 98o near the bubble is just weighing the odds of your any two cards to that of moving up in the money. Classic risk/reward, not even on the same planet of collusion.
| mamoose wrote: |
Betting with your right hand when you have the nuts, left hand on a draw, or other signals is where you crossed a clear line - these aren't "tells". |
No they sure aren't tells.
| mamoose wrote: |
Signalling and/or signing is cheating |
Yes it is.
| mamoose wrote: |
and when money is involved -is essentially stealing. It's not "adjusting the odds." You went in to a casino to steal other people's money. Pulling the "but the dictionary says" bit to quibble quabble in semantics is silly. |
Ahh, and here is where it all comes crumbing down... I'd be stealing if I reached into someone elses chip stack in a cash game and took some of their chips. That action is guaranteed to net me money (or jail time). What we were doing is gaining an advantage or edge. This advantage or edge was not guaranteed to net me money.
Let me try to enlighten you a different way. When 10 people put up $85 to play at a SnG, they are all gambling. Gambling with money. All things being equal, each has a 1/10th chance of winning at the start. In this case winning money that they are gambling with. They are willing to bet $85 to win a greater sum knowing that they have a 1 in 10 chance of winning. They usually have a better chance if they are good card players. When 2 or more player collude together, they INCREASE their chances of winning but it is still never guaranteed. That's the point you keep missing. Calling this stealing is ridiculous.
| mamoose wrote: |
If yuo were only concerned with "gaining an edge" - you shouldn't have needed a 20 minute "timeout" to cool off before seeing the guy (your friend's friend) that busted you... You would have gotten up said "shoot, that sucks.." and gone on with life. |
You read but don't absorb. I was furious because he broke the rule we went over repeatedly: NEVER CALL AN ALL IN BY ANOTHER TEAMMATE. Even in that situation, I had a coin flip. AK vs Pocket Pair. Had I won the had I would still be fuming. Also, it was a fluke chance to try to get 4 people in the money and he ruined it. Nothing was certain but we had a chance to do it. These two reasons are why I was fuming. Not because I was so certain we would get all 4 into the money. It's because we messed up the chance to get all 4 into the money. In that same hand, if the tourist raised from UTG with a pocket pair and my teammates folded to me, I probably would have had to make the same move and go all in because my blind was a significant portion of my stack. If he would have knocked me out I would have said "shoot, that sucks..". You totally missed the point on that one.
| mamoose wrote: |
For anyone even thinking about pulling these stunts, people get beaten up for crap like this. |
Yes they do. |
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mamoose
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 166
Location: Meriden, CT
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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ok, I've got it
I said "collusion" when I was refering to a "cooperation play" hence "collusion" in quotes...
you didn't "steal" you "increased your odds"
from your original quote
| Jathan wrote: | | I was part of a trio that went down to AC (most harrahs) to play as a team in their SnG's. We did very well for a few months, going down on Saturday nights and playing until the last SnG which was around 12:00 to 1:00 am, then start playing cash games until late Sunday afternoon. We would use our chips to signal our hands to each other and to call for a certain action by our team mates. We would dump chips to each other and ping-pong ppl between us, it was great. We would always end up with at least 2 of us in the money (top 3) and sometimes we'd all get in the money and then it was great cause we'd have a harrahs dealer dealing for us while we messed around with wild plays. We would split all winnings from the SnG's amongst the team.. |
you agree that signalling is cheating. so you admit to cheating at poker in at casinos. but cheating isn't stealing people's money - it's increasing your odds.
Another lesson for those of you following along at home - a wise lawyer once told me... deny deny deny, then deny some more.
I'll try to stop beating the dead horse. I will go and complete my Reading Is Fundamental course now.... I'm sorry, I'm the one who's missing the point here 
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Jathan
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| mamoose wrote: | | ok, I've got it |
Well, we'll see about that...
| mamoose wrote: |
I said "collusion" when I was refering to a "cooperation play" hence "collusion" in quotes...
you didn't "steal" you "increased your odds" |
So far so good....
| mamoose wrote: |
you agree that signalling is cheating. so you admit to cheating at poker in at casinos. but cheating isn't stealing people's money - it's increasing your odds. |
I have never denied colluded at poker at harrah's last year. I wont disagree if you call it cheating. In poker when two or more people play together, whether it's dumping chips to each other or calling for actions - both of which we have done, it's colluding. Does it fall under the category of cheating, in my opinion, yes it does. In this case it only increased our chances to win. There are several other forms of cheating that can be done in poker that I would consider stealing but this is not one of them. For example, a cold deck can be brought into play by a dealer that is working with a player, that would deal 2 people 4 of a kind and a third a straight flush in a game of draw poker. In this case the outcome is guaranteed. While the dealer and cooperating player didn't phisically reach over and pocket chips from the other players stacks, the outcome was guaranteed. Calling for an action, dumping chips and tipping your teammates off when you have AA or KK is collusion but not stealing. Asking everyone out loud to call the next time a sitter is all in so that we have a better chance to bust him/her is colluding, not stealing.
| mamoose wrote: |
Another lesson for those of you following along at home - a wise lawyer once told me... deny deny deny, then deny some more. |
Are you seriously implying that I am denying anything????
| mamoose wrote: |
I'll try to stop beating the dead horse. I will go and complete my Reading Is Fundamental course now.... I'm sorry, I'm the one who's missing the point here |
You said it not me. Having never taken that course, I can't vouch for it but who knows, it might help. |
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Jathan
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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You people are funny. I always get a kick out of how the anonymity of the internet gives people the bravado to say things they would never say in real life. But the funniest thing is to see people, repeatedly expose how little thought they put into their words. Even though it takes much more effort to type a word than to speak it. It's almost embarrassing to constantly have to point out the ignorance of some of their statements.
My original post in this thread (my 6th post in 9-10 month I believe) was to relate my experience to that of PK's and to disagree with his analysis of team poker play. The reaction it received was at first unexpected, but in retrospect, it should not have surprised me. Occasionally reading the forums, I've noticed one thing: For such a small group of people there seems to be a lot of hostility here. The need that some people have to single others out and unload a verbal barage, behind the anonymity of internet, is a little scarey yet entertaining. Which is what PA is: entertainment. This is why it shouldn't have surprised me...
Well, here is a statement from me now: Over a few months last year, I colluded at poker in a casino. This past week the Ryder Cuppers colluded at poker on PA. Every night on PA, people collude at poker against sitters EXPLICITELY, not IMPLICITELY. We all colluded at poker, regardles of the stakes, to improve our CHANCES of winning. Whether is was for money, pride or entertainment, it makes NO DIFFERENCE.
Chew on that.
You want to single me out from the rest? Bring it. You want to call me names? Bring it. You want to say I stole or robbed people? Bring it. You want to blurt out anything else that will exposed your ignorance? Bring it.
Only two people, TD and PK, have put any thought or reason into their words. I can only respect whatever opinions they have of me and hope it will not affect our play on PA. The rest of you came out swinging at a total stranger with utter nonsense, while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.
Keep it up. Bring it on. My job puts me in front of a computer all day. Writing code all day wears on your eyes and is mentally draining. You have to take breaks every so often. At least with this I can also entertain myself on my breaks. |
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Rob-L
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 2659
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jathan wrote: |
I have thick skin and wont bother getting into it with any of you morally superior people. |
So much for not getting into it and so much for your "thick skin". Seems like you lost it there toward the end. |
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Jathan
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Rob-L wrote: | | So much for your "thick skin". Seems like you lost it there toward the end. |
Skin is still thick. I just figure I'd find a way to continue to entertain myself, picking people apart and joining the party like everyone else 
Also, "lost it"??? How do you come to that conclusion?? |
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P K
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Jathan wrote: | I can only respect whatever opinions they have of me and hope it will not affect our play on PA. The rest of you came out swinging at a total stranger with utter nonsense, while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.
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Jathan,
You are quickly discovering the small group of regulars on this forum whom band together like wild indians, attacking and defending.
They did the same thing to me. Now I am famous, or at least infamous!
I just picture the reality of it all. Small people, with low paying jobs sitting in their underwear playing poker, occasionally taking the time to attack someone on the Internet to make up for being a loser in high school!
I have no problem playing any game of poker against you at any time.
Carry on. The entertainment is good for my soul!
P K |
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P K
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing...
With me, it all started when I made a friend on PA from Minnesota. HE owns a counter top company. My house has a 27' bar in the kitchen with Corian counter top.
I was sending him links to my web site in the chat so he could look at the pictures.
I was accused of bragging, being a big shot, whatever. It is the same group of people you see regularly post in these forums.
You see, when you have nothing and you are nothing, it bothers you to see others whom are successful, smarter, bigger, more out going, brighter, happier, whatever, you name it.
These same small people will continue their quest to put others down so they can build their own self esteem. The only thing they are missing is the fact that its a facade.
Live on and forget them.
P K |
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PAX ROCK
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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That's it exactly. I'm sure it has nothing to do with both of you being complete assholes. Let's dispell the myth that you two are being ganged up on and check in with some neutral parties on the rec.gambling.poker newsgroup.
http://tinyurl.com/pdsrz
Time to take a good look at yourselves. |
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P K
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| PAX ROCK wrote: | That's it exactly. I'm sure it has nothing to do with both of you being complete assholes. Let's dispell the myth that you two are being ganged up on and check in with some neutral parties on the rec.gambling.poker newsgroup.
http://tinyurl.com/pdsrz
Time to take a good look at yourselves. |
What the hell are you talking about?
I didn't cheat, nor did I say I cheated, nor did I say I condone his cheating. In fact, I specifically reserved my comment, but I am willing to say that the same self righteous pricks continue to gang up on people in the forums.
The cheating is one man's story so keep me out of it.
LEARN TO READ!
P K
Last edited by P K on Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jathan
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| PAX ROCK wrote: | That's it exactly. I'm sure it has nothing to do with both of you being complete assholes. Let's dispell the myth that you two are being ganged up on and check in with some neutral parties on the rec.gambling.poker newsgroup.
http://tinyurl.com/pdsrz
Time to take a good look at yourselves. |
Oh yea, there you go... Newsgroups... This must be the exact place where you all get you manners from. Just take a look at the comments you find in any thread in any newsgroups - nothing but flame wars. No wonder this place is what it is.
LOL, you put the post in a flame pit to somehow prove a point to me??? See above post regarding ignorance.... |
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mamoose
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 166
Location: Meriden, CT
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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PK,
I'm surprised you're not looking at this more seriously. Whether Jathan would like to admit it or not, he cheated at poker, in a sense - stole people's money, and compomised the intregrity of the game.
While I think more people don't cut you the slack you deserve, I'm surprised you'd react this way to this person's story.
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Nut-ella
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Southern Emisphere
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | As far as being lumped in with the "lowest of the lowest of scum", both nut-ella and jayhawker already have me classified the same as they classify you. The reason is not because of your post, rather because these type of people need to put others down in order to feel good about themselves.
That is why you see most of their posts are filled with criticism of others.
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Was your name mentioned in my posts to Jathan?
par·a·noi·a [ pàrrə nóy ə ]
noun
Definition:
1. distrust: extreme and unreasonable suspicion of other people and their motives
2. psychiatric disorder: a psychiatric disorder involving systematized delusion, usually of persecution
Except my posts on your chip dumping, and Jathan' cheating, you're more than welcome to post any of my posts that are filled with criticism of others, in order to feel good about myself, it wont take you that long, there's only 9 of them!
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Oh shut up! just shut up!! You had me at Hello!!! |
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alan
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 972
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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I think Jathan is getting too much attention here so I am going to attack P K.
I was going through globalization documentation recently. There are lists of phrases that are not allowed because they are offensive in Chinese.
"P K" was in the list. P K is such an unpleasant person that when he was born his mother cursed in Chinese (which everyone knows is the best language for cursing) and that became his name.
Thank you. I'm here all week. Try the fish. |
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P K
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| mamoose wrote: | PK,
I'm surprised you're not looking at this more seriously. Whether Jathan would like to admit it or not, he cheated at poker, in a sense - stole people's money, and compomised the intregrity of the game.
While I think more people don't cut you the slack you deserve, I'm surprised you'd react this way to this person's story. |
I appreciate your comment. Don't think for a second I don't take it serious. I wouldn't want to get in a game with guys doing what Jathan has described. If I caught them, I would report them.
Let me tell you a story. At the WSoP at Rincon San Diego, I sat down to a $1000 buy-in 10 player Sit n' Go. I was ready to hand the dealer my money and a guy at the table said "I'll take that, I am buying the table with my tournament chips and collecting the cash."
I refused and it all began from there.
Let me explain. As you are probably aware, it is common practice (or was) for players to play in Sit n' Go's and win Tournament chips (No Cash Value) then turn around and "buy a table" or sell them to people buying into the main event.
Their are many problems with this common practice, but the one that strikes a nerve with me the most is the fact that the WSoP designed these Sit' N Go's as a way for people like me and you to have a chance to win a seat in the main event. The problem with the chip sellers is they are pros that are winning many Sit 'n Go's and make a living at the expense of amateurs, like myself, trying to win a seat. So, I take exception to them doing it and have always refused to sell my chips.
At this particular event, the guy got ticked off because I wouldn't "buy in" to his chip and therefore he couldn't buy the entire table. The guys friend was so mad at me, he called me every name in the book, then told the dealer to "f off" and asked for his money back cause he wasn't going to play at a table with a "cocksucker" like me.
He then proceeded to scam me out of cash by telling the dealer he was out of the game and demanded the refund in cash even though he bought in with a $1000 No Cash Value chip. The dealer refunded him the money using the cash I bought in with, as I was the only one of the ten players that bought in with cash (all 8 other players gave the guy with the 10K chip their cash).
So, you might say, what's the big deal. First, I don't want sharks sitting down at my opportunity to win a seat just to take my $1000 for their pocket. Second, the dealer refunding the guy $1000 cash for his No Cash Value tournament chip is an illegal transaction.
I immediately called for Casino security and had them bring in the California Gaming Commision, whom subsequently ruled in my favor.
Now, at any WSoP event, you will find that NO PLAYER is allowed to "buy the table" with tournament chips and demand players paying cash give them their money. While the sharks are still playing and selling off their No Cash Value chips, it is now much more difficult for them and there are less of them at the tables.
So, you see, I think that is "cheating", not outright like Jathans experience, but enough that you should know here I stand!
Enough said. I need to go to bed so I can drive to Tunica in the morning. I still have a seat to win for Mondays main event!
P K
Last edited by P K on Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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P K
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Nut-ella wrote: | | Except my posts on your chip dumping |
When you have evidence of me "chip dumping" you can open your trap, until then you can classify yourself:
2. psychiatric disorder: a psychiatric disorder involving systematized delusion, usually of persecution
P K |
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Nut-ella
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Southern Emisphere
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| P K wrote: | | Nut-ella wrote: | | Except my posts on your chip dumping |
When you have evidence of me "chip dumping" you can open your trap, until then you can classify yourself:
2. psychiatric disorder: a psychiatric disorder involving systematized delusion, usually of persecution
P K |
I never accused you of "chip dumping", i said i posted about your chip dumping, ( and, to be precise, i didn't even do that ).
Until a few weeks ago, i didn't even know what " chip dumping " meant, until i read posts written by other PA members accusing you of such.
As for point no.2 ..lol.... that's my line, do your own research!!!!
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Oh shut up! just shut up!! You had me at Hello!!! |
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