Team Poker - Why it is a failure!

[P K]

The Ryder Cup! It was fun...or was it? It seemed to go off without a hitch, well organized by non other than Soul Shine, our beloved European laugh master!

I give much credit to Soul for his effort putting this thing together. It was a lot of work. I couldn't have done it myself. Bravo my friend!

I want to examine the idea of team poker. As I envisioned it, team poker would be a group of excellent poker players, each on one team or another, playing in a series of games to see who would rise to the top, exposing the best players whom would score the most points for their team.

It was far from that and the Europeans did a fine job of demonstrating that to me and my teammates. The Europeans were smart, clever, cunning, even brilliant I would say! They played team poker like I would have never envisioned!

Everything we did was to their advantage and our own demise. When one of us would raise, the rest would fold, the Europeans, wisely called, unless they had such "mains de merde" that it made no sense.

It was rare we could call them off a hand preflop. It took raises of 15X the BB or more. Then they would grumble and mutter, "it's too expensive". Raises of 2-5x the BB were routinely called by more than one European player and then they would call, rarely raise, until the river. If one of them raised, he had the nuts and they would fold, especially if the American folded.

The effect was that one of them almost always beat us. It was insane. From our side of the table it looked like plain bad luck...or was it?

Think about it...1 US player with a decent hand, 3-5 Europeans with almost any hand, what are the chance you will win, no matter the odds going into the hand? This changes everything!

We were doomed from the beginning. Was it collusion, well, that depends how you look at it. Certainly not during the game. I don't recall any verbal communications. Was there betting or raising collaboration, perhaps. They certainly admitted to having the meetings to discuss it, but swear they didn't use it.

Nonetheless, even if they did have meetings and did use bet/raise signals, it would be all the more brilliant! They said they did not, so I take them at thier word. I have played with most of them to believe they are men and women of integrity.

So, even without collusion, the simple team play of call around and let the odds of having the best hand in the end worked flawlessly, then, when you have a chip lead, dump some chips to your teammate.

What were we to do? Nothing I tell you, we were blindsided! Then we learned. We evaluated, we analyzed and we discovered the brilliance of their play and we said to ourselves, let's use it against them...with a twist!

This time, we used secret names, Number 1, Number 2, Number 3, Number 4. We called them down and we dumped chips to our teammates and it worked, just like it did for them...with one exception! A rouge double agent! What? A conspiracy? Well, not exactly...it was worse!

Yes, our plan was going smoothly. The Europeans were so busy chatting about who was who they were not paying attention to what we were doing to them. In addition, a few of them seem to be on TILT a bit because of our mysterious presence at the table. Go Americans, it shall be a slaughter.

And so it went, first Number 1 (P K) took out lente with a brilliant all in move from the big blind with 8/10 and two 8's on the board. Lente, having 86 in the small blind called and was rivered by a 10 giving Number 1 (PK) the boat! Luck? Of course! But we were on our way.

Then Number 4 (samarama) took out the short stacked European (US resident Canadian traitor) Rhino for the ultimate blow. Within seconds it seemed hopeless for the Europeans as all four Americans were on the top!

We had them right were we wanted them. Short stacked and down two players. Would the US take all four positions in the final Ryder Cup game?

Then it happened. One American decided that winning for himself was far more important than winning with the team. Number 3 (ACES234) decided to go over the top of short stacked Number 2 (Pokergurl) when she made a huge bet with AK. She replied with an all-in thinking he would lay his hand down to her and he called! With Pokect Aces!!!!! He beat her and put her out of the tournament thereby ensuring the Europeans points for at least 4th place.

WTF? Number 1 (PK) was livid! I couldn't believe it happened. What was this "teammate" thinking?

A few minutes later, the same thing happened to Number 1 (PK) when he pushed all-in, the European folded and the rouge Number 3 (ACES234) called, taking 90% of Number 1's (PK) stack!

Unbelievable. Did PK go through the roof? Oh yeah baby! HE gave Number 3 an ear full (or eye full) for 10 minutes!!!

Number 3 (ACE234) was unphased and could care less about team play. He continued on his quest to win the tournament without regard for his teammates. Number 1 (PK) managed to crawl his way back up and eventually put out his second European, but Number 3 (ACES234) continued to play for himself.

Finally, in a moment of utter disgust and frustration, Number 1 (PK) suggested to both Number 4 (Samarama) and the remaining European that we call the game. Who cares, the Ryder Cup was already won by the Europeans, the game was taking forever with 60 minute levels and with a rouge agent on the team, it was pointless. We already proved that we could play the team game as well as the Europeans (albeit too late).

So, what's the moral of the story?

Poker is an INDIVIDUAL game. While the team concept is interesting, it is not "in the cards" for this game! All it takes is one team using a system, colluding, collaborating, whatever, or one player to be uncooperative and the team is done, cooked, finished...kaput!

To all the Europeans, Congratulations. My hat is off to you all for playing so well as a team. You proved that you could play as a team and beat anyone. I respect you all as individual players and I hope we all remain friends for many years to come. Thank you for the experience. It was worth every minute!

To Idaho! While I know you worked hard to put together the "Old Timers" to play the US and EU teams, do you still think it is worth while? This game is really not meant to be played this way. I know of several teammates that agree and are really not interested in playing this again. Out of respect for your efforts, and you personally, I will organize them to play if you want, but I really think team poker is destined for failure!

To all of you that didn't get to play, I am sorry if we passed over you in the selection process. It was a difficult thing putting together this team and it was even more difficult playing as a team.

Best wishes to everyone on PA.

Sincerely,

P K (aka Poker King)
President of Korea (North)

[Rob-L]

[Merlin]

[skipsperry]

What if we expanded on North America's idea and made everyone come in as a number that no one else would know, not even your teammates? Possible? Would this work to decrease "team" play?

I have to admit, after hearing how team play works, I am not nearly as excited . . .
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IdahoAs
Yes, the "As" stands for ACES!

[Vannina]

[Chip Raptor]

[Jathan]

[Rob-L]

PK was refering to team play for competition. Not for cheating and colluding against tourists.

[Jayhawker]

Wow. I cannot believe I suggested you for the Ryder team. Now I am really embarrassed. We all know there are scumbags that cheat at poker, but it just astonishes me that someone would brag about it on this forum.
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Jayhawker

Gabe: Phil Hellmuth has got a weird look on his face... like a shy ostrich who's looking to mate.
AJ: I'll take your word for that one.
Gabe: You don't watch National Geographic?
AJ: Yeah, but the ostrich episodes are not my favorite.

[Cardgrrl]

Speechless.

[Jathan]

[Akileos]

Whereas I don't approve of collusion in individual poker, I still thank you Jathan for sharing this post with us. It is best to know about this and see life without unnecessary illussions.


Best wishes

Akileos
_________________
Look mommy, I won a hand! I love poker now!!!

[Rob-L]

[Jathan]

[Cardgrrl]

STILL speechless.

[Jathan]

[Threetreys]

I used to do sorta the same thing when I lived in New York, so I don't find what Jathan did as shocking as many of you . . . I was on a 4 man team that staked out at Ceasars . . . we would watch large multi-table tournaments where there was a large cash prize . . . after the tournament we would take note of who won the big cash prize and then beat him/her up and rob him/her when they left the casino . . . some of you may not agree with this but don't tell me it never crossed your mind! We were very successful until one of our team members became a born again christian during an episode of Touched by an Angel and turned us all in . . .

On a side note . . . whether you agree with what Jathan did in AC (and there is no question that it was cheating and is probably not as uncommon as many of us would like to think) or not this technique would have helped during the Ryder Cup . . . which says something about the Ryder Cup
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I'm hard yet soft, I am coloured yet clear, I am fruity and sweet. I am jelly. What am I?

[Jayhawker]

Jathan, we've chatted a few times, and it always comes down to the same thing. You whine like a baby every time someone sucks out on you. You question every call that goes against you.

The discussion about the sandwich play came from another situation like that. You called me and the guy who called my all-in retards, and then claimed that I didn't understand what you really meant. The fact is, you were pissed becasue you had a better hand, and I and the other player forced you to fold, and I got payed off.

Yeah, you called a us retards, and claimed we didn't know what you meant.

All you can say is that PA is not real poker, and try to come off like we are all fools, while you are the all-knowing poker pro. And you wonder why people on PA think you are an ass.

Honestly, it makes sense that you posted such a disgraceful story here. It's almost humorous that you think posting this is some sort of a service to people here, in order to expose the rotting underbelly of poker. Everyone knows there are cheaters out there, and the way you descibed is an old story, which is why Rob doubted you in the first place.

The key here is, you have acted like an ass to many people at PA, only to excuse it by claiming we are just clueless dolts. You whine when you lose to a bad call. And now you come here and talk about how you and your buddies are scumbag cheaters, while you, King Scumbag, left your "friends" without a ride in Atlantic City. Oh, but that story was a benefit to the good folks at PA, as we would appreciate hearing about how poker "really" is.

It all boils down to the the fact that you are about as much of a low life as there is. No social skills, no conscience, no remorse. No reason to be treated with any amount of respect, really. Maybe pitied, but you would just take advantage of that, because you have the hallmarks of a sociopath.

I see no reason for your presence to be tolerated by anyone here.
_________________
Jayhawker

Gabe: Phil Hellmuth has got a weird look on his face... like a shy ostrich who's looking to mate.
AJ: I'll take your word for that one.
Gabe: You don't watch National Geographic?
AJ: Yeah, but the ostrich episodes are not my favorite.

[Rob-L]

I love how all cheats try to justify themselves by saying others do it or think about it. Of course some have thought about it, but the difference is most have the proper moral fiber to not act on it. The other move is to infer that the person coming down on them are trying to come off as "superior" or "better" to make them feel wrong about calling you a cheat. It's flawed logic, you know it's wrong at least be man enough to admit it.

The one thing I know about cheating is that you don't brag about it or talk about it with people outside your cheating team.

So, you're either a pathetic liar who has watched Rounders one too many times or you're an idiotic and awful cheater.

[Cardgrrl]

Whichever the case, in future, I will not knowingly play at any PAO table where I find Jathan sitting.